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View Full Version : Windows10+DTPro6.1.0 - NO Securom Emulation?



powerdrome
19.10.2015, 16:57
Hello,
I used to run an application from my windows XP and through windows 8.1.
It is an English-Italian dictionary from Zanichelli called Ragazzini version 2003, on Cd-Rom.
I created an image as backup and in order to not carry the CD-rom with me around.
I used to mount it on a SCSI virtual device and activate Securom emulation with winXP and Win8.1.
It worked with no troubles

Now I installed Win10 and Daemon Tools Pro Advanced Edition 6.1.0.0484
Created the virtual SCSI device,
But i cannot see the advanced preferences to activate securom emulation,
Mounting and running my image does not work, the dictionary doesn't load.
SPTD is installed version 2.2

Now with windows 10 i can run it from the ORIGINAL cdrom, though, but i would like to run froma virtual device for faster execution and for backup purposes.

Anybody knows any solution?

Thanks

Terramex
20.10.2015, 07:46
Hallo, and welcome to the forums.
In this case you have to create a new MDS or MDX image of your original disc using the Old SecuROM datatype.
That one won't need "extra emulaion" as it holds all required copy protection information.

powerdrome
20.10.2015, 17:30
Thanks for your help,
here is the link to a DropBox Folder with 3 different images:
1. Ragazzini2003.ISO is the image i have used since 10 years with winXP and win8.1, always worked with Daemon Tools and securom emulation.
2. RAG2003.mdx, just created with DaemonTools 6.1.0.0484, OLDsecurom Profile
3. RAG2003(2).mdx, , just created with DaemonTools 6.1.0.0484, NEWsecurom Profile (left default additional parameters)

Here is the link:
*removed*

PS: I’m running windows 10, my suspect is that there is something wrong with Securom emulation and Win10


Many thanks

Terramex
21.10.2015, 10:13
Even though i understand your approach, i'm sorry i had to remove your link to the full images :(
If someone wants to test the disc check in Windows 10 i've attached a Mini Image instead.
There's no installation so just run the Zan.exe main executable.

I had no problems with your Old SecuROM image in Windows 7 (XP SP3 compatibility mode, also in a DT device),
but no luck in Windows 10. It seems the Zan.exe process is shut down immediately.
Maybe a copy protection problem, maybe a Windows problem on my system.

What's the behaviour on your system ?
Any error message ?

P.S.: sorry for asking, but your original CD really works without issues ?
I'm asking because of this: http://forum.daemon-tools.cc/f26/microsoft-update-kb3086255-removes-safedisc-support-windows-nt-6-x-oss-36766/

EDIT: btw. ProtectionID says SecuROM (very old.. v3 or less)

powerdrome
21.10.2015, 12:54
Hello Terramex, sorry for the link and thanks for uploading a mini one (how does it work? the mini image?)

Anyway here is the behaviuor in my system:

Running from original CD--> OK
yes i was surprised too, reading the securom limitation in win10, here is the pic:
screenshot (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ssdgciq81yk3w9b/Screenshot%20%2821%29.png?dl=0)

Running from DaemonTools SCSI virtual device+image with orig cd inserted: OK

Running from DaemonTools SCSI virtual device+image withOUT orig cd inserted:
- first time it prompts: no disc found in E:, and closes
- second time no prompt error, but Zan.exe process closes

I also have a ProcessMonitor Log when not running:
ProcMon LOG (https://www.dropbox.com/s/4fwvb6eraw28lfw/Zan_NOT-running.PML?dl=0)

I also tried to connect the virtual device to my physical E: with Daemon Tools, no GO
I also tried to give virtual device letter E:, no GO

Terramex when i first installed daemon tools on winxp or win8.1, i got the same error
until I enabled advanced emulation,
so now with Win10 I have the feeling that advanced emulation is not active!

Is there a way to check it?

What is your test results? did it worked the *.iso on win10? and win7

Thanks for your help

Terramex
21.10.2015, 16:11
The Mini Image works just like the full one but is just for test purposes to see if the disc check is successful.
1727

But i had to update the last one as some sectors were missing :redface:

However, i'll forward your issue.

P.S.: i have no problem in Windows 10 with New SecuROM (tested only v8.03.0012) - so it seems to be no general emulation problem

SUPPORT1
22.10.2015, 15:46
Hi,


Terramex gave you right option use Old SecuROM profile for grabbing. Going to check if there any grabbing problem with old SecuROM, but seems to me it is the particular case.

Development
22.10.2015, 18:09
It is also possible, that your physical CDROM device is not capable of grabbing subchannel data. This functionality depends on device vendor and model.

Terramex
22.10.2015, 19:37
@Development
I've successfully tested his Old SecuROM profile MDX image in XP and 7 (SCSI & DT device) - only fails in Windows 10.

powerdrome
23.10.2015, 12:58
Thanks you all for the support!

My thoughts....
Terramex had the same problem with windows 10 and NOT previous windows versions... --> this excludes a hardware grabbing problem
Why my previuos *.ISO image that worked with DT emulation till windows 8.1, is not working with Win10? shouldn't Daemon Tools handle the same image with win8.1 AND win10 (maybe something in emultaion changed with new DT version?)

I've tried to grab with a trial alternative software (not mentioning the name...) an *.MDS OLDsecurom profile... it WORKS using that software mounting!!!
Other tests with this ALT software:
My old *.ISO is not working with this alt software
Mounting the *.MDX grabbed with DaemonT, does not work with this alt software

Now the strange part:
Mounting this NEW *.MDS on virtual DaemonTools device, it runs but it takes 60 seconds to load, while the other software do it immediately
If I run with the ALTernative software, while also mounted an image on virtual daemon tools device, it runs slow 60 seconds to load
If i unmount the virtual daemon tools device image, with the alternative software my dictionary runs OK fast.

This dictionary must have a double protection check: securom + cd check

The new Daemon tools with Windows 10 is not handling this correctly.

Hope this can help to find a solution, thanks again for the help

Development
25.10.2015, 03:53
1) Do not make tests with both original CD inserted and virtual drive mounted. The same applies to two or more virtual drives containing same image in different products. This does not make any sense because Securom will just use the first drive it finds (normally the first drive letter) and will ignore other drives. So by doing this you only add confusion - always make sure that your dictionary is mounted by one device in system only.

2)To verify the old Securom behavior, i installed the first Neverwinter Nights game (unpatched V 1.10) from original images - it has old Securom protection with sub channel check (before 1.21 patch). It works fine in Windows 10 for me in DTPRO 7 (latest version, released recently). So this functionality is not broken in Windows 10 and works as expected if image is CORRECT (mds/mdx/ccd). ISO will not normally work, because it does not contain subchannels. That is why it requires Securom emulation option in Advanced settings. On Windows 10 these emulation options are not supported anymore and hence you must have correct image with subchannels.

3) We need to investigate, why DTPRO cannot create correct image from original CD for you. Maybe there is some bug in grabber with "Old Securom" profile. But it is strange, that it works in Windows 7 for Terramex.

Terramex
25.10.2015, 11:06
@Development
Does the Mini image in post #4 work on your Windows 10 (7/8) system ?
The source for it was Powerdrome's DT Pro Old SecuROM image.

btw. is there any other difference between old any very old SecROM besides the few defective sector(s) at the end ?

P.S.: as long as SPTD is installed the only emulation option active by default in Windows 10 is RMPS ?

Development
25.10.2015, 16:27
1)
I have just found a bug in DT during dump of subchannel information - subchannel flag is simply not saved to final image. Sorry. We'll fix this in the next version. This explains now why that old Securom image (made in DT PRO) is not working, but the "competing" one is ok.
I did not test the mini image yet, but it seems not needed anymore because of this bug.

2)
As far as i know, there is not much difference between old Securoms versions, besides that defective sector at the and. I name it "tricky sector." It is usually located 4 sectors below LeadOut and Securom verifies its presence in case CDROM does not support reading subs properly.

3)
RMPS is not supported in Windows 10 anymore too. This includes all CD-R media emulations: RMPS, Hide-CDR, Safedisc, Securom. Laser lock.
These type of emulations were used in the past for CD-R/RW written media backups, when image could not be burnt correctly (1:1), hence additional emulations options were needed with the help of SPTD.
In Windows 10 all this stuff was dropped due to several reasons:
a) kernel architecture of Windows 10 has changed significantly with the focus to security, and hooking physical CDROM devices has become much more difficult and less safe;
b) almost nobody uses CD-R/RW media anymore to play or backup games, and it is much faster and easier to have 1:1 image of original on hard disk, especially if you take in account size of today's HDDs.

So we decided to make is simpler for the user and remove these options. If someone has a lot of such old CD-Rs, then it is best to recreate proper image from original and forget this "ancient" stuff. Or use older OS and DT version.
What concerns RMPS in theory it is possible to dump such CD-R as normal ISO, then convert it to 1:1 MDS/MDX - we may do it in the future in case of high demand.

powerdrome
26.10.2015, 18:10
Hello, I'm happy we found 1 culprit and hope that it will be addressed on future releases.

I also tried the new DT pro 7 trial version, I liked the new interface.
I installed it on a clean win10
Firstly I got on installation a security message from defender:
Program:Win32/Hadsruda!bit (http://www.microsoft.com/security/portal/threat/encyclopedia/entry.aspx?name=Program%3aWin32%2fHadsruda!bit&threatid=213971&enterprise=0)
It seems that a malware Hadsruba was included.
Anyway I didn't install the sptd this time, mounted a virtal DT device and my mdf image.

Now the dictionary (image made with other program) works but again it is very slow to load (60 seconds).

Tried to install the other "competing" software and it runs it very fast (3seconds).

My suspect is that disc soft bus service is handlng the loading badly.

Any suggestions on this? I'm really attached to Daemon Tools, that I use since 2003, and don't want to change.

Thanks a lot

Terramex
28.10.2015, 08:44
Now the dictionary (image made with other program) works but again it is very slow to load (60 seconds).Same behaviour with all images when mounting in a DT device ?

Please download this tool: http://www.bustrace.com/downloads/devfilter.exe
Run it, highlight your optical drive on the left, then check upper/lower filters on the right.
Which filters are installed on your system ?

powerdrome
28.10.2015, 12:28
Hello Terramex and thanks for keep helping me.

YES, same behaviour with all images, 60 seconds to load; if i run it a second time it is faster, but when i change image, 60 seconds again.

Should i run devfilter.exe with DT installed, or it doesn't matter?

Right now I have NO software installed (DT or other) here is the result of my optical drive:

----------------------------------------------------
Filter Driver Load Order Professional software bus analyzers, USB, SCSI, iSCSI, SAS, ATA, ATAPI, Fibre Channel, and more! (http://www.bustrace.com)
----------------------------------------------------

Upper Class Filter: GEARAspiWDM
Device Object: HL-DT-ST DVDRAM GU71N
Lower Filter Drivers: No Lower Filter Drivers specified for this device

Driver Name: gearaspiwdm.sys
File Location: c:\windows\system32\drivers
File Description: CD DVD Filter
File Version: 2.02.03.00 [2.2.3.0]
Product Name: CD DVD Filter
Product Version: 2.02.03.00 [2.2.3.0]
Company Name: GEAR Software Inc.

Please let me know if we need a report with DT installed, thanks

Terramex
28.10.2015, 13:59
Should i run devfilter.exe with DT installed, or it doesn't matter?Doesn't matter.

There were incompatibilities/issues with the GEAR driver (mostly installed with iTunes) in the past.
Maybe this is the culprit.

You can try to remove them by using the Driver installer (http://www.gearsoftware.com/support/drivers.php), reboot, and then uninstall in Control Panel/Programs and Features.
Or if that doesn't work, manually: DRIVERS: Windows - Updating, removing, 64 bit versions, etc - GEAR Software Knowledgebase (http://www.gearsoftware.com/wiki/index.php/DRIVERS:_Windows_-_Updating,_removing,_64_bit_versions,_etc)

P.S.: have you noticed my PM ?

powerdrome
28.10.2015, 19:36
Ok terramex good find; actually I have iTunes installed, what is that driver for? recording cdroms?

However I had the same behaviour on my CLEAN win10 installed, I have to try devfilter.exe on the clean install

Terramex
29.10.2015, 08:56
A clean vanilla Windows 10 installation doesn't have filter drivers in the optical disc driver stack.

DT device creation and accessibility should be rather fast.
Would you please attach/upload a zipped Autoruns (http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb963902) arn file (no installation required) ?

Although support and even a dev were already active in this thread the forum usually provides more of an additional/secondary user-to-user support.
Therefore please also contact the official support team (http://www.disc-soft.com/sendmsg/tech) with reference to this thread.

powerdrome
31.10.2015, 18:03
A clean vanilla Windows 10 installation doesn't have filter drivers in the optical disc driver stack.

DT device creation and accessibility should be rather fast.
Would you please attach/upload a zipped Autoruns (http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb963902) arn file (no installation required) ?

Although support and even a dev were already active in this thread the forum usually provides more of an additional/secondary user-to-user support.
Therefore please also contact the official support team (http://www.disc-soft.com/sendmsg/tech) with reference to this thread.


Hello, finished testing on a CLEAN image as suggested:

please find the results:

1. https://www.dropbox.com/s/sggcjc1r2v2sd7s/DTLOG.zip?dl=0

here you find a zip file including:
bustrace.txt
VirusTotal report (Antivirus scan for....)
Malware File installed by DT 7 (install59808.exe)
Autoruns (Win10CLEAN.arn)

2. https://www.dropbox.com/s/7rijgdxvgo5mobz/Daemon.MOV?dl=0

video of DT slow loading image

3. https://www.dropbox.com/s/ae882pfmmrvpmmf/Competitor.MOV?dl=0

video of competitor software loading fast

4. https://www.dropbox.com/s/j69totmsol096ir/Zan_NOT-running.PML?dl=0

process Monitor log, error loading Zan.exe

Could you please give those files a look and find the solution.

Thanks a lot

Development
03.11.2015, 18:06
According to BusTrace i do not see virtual IDE/SCSI drive of DAEMON Tools listed - I just see "DiscSoft Virtual SCSI CdRom Device".
This is simple DT cdrom from dtproscsibus.sys, which may be subject of blacklist by old protections. Make sure you create IDE/SCSI device explicitly and mount your dictionary there. Its model in device manager (or BusTrace) will have some random charactes to avoid blacklisting. The competing software uses real SCSI device emulation too, maybe this explains why it works fast.

powerdrome
03.11.2015, 19:56
According to BusTrace i do not see virtual IDE/SCSI drive of DAEMON Tools listed - I just see "DiscSoft Virtual SCSI CdRom Device".
This is simple DT cdrom from dtproscsibus.sys, which may be subject of blacklist by old protections. Make sure you create IDE/SCSI device explicitly and mount your dictionary there. Its model in device manager (or BusTrace) will have some random charactes to avoid blacklisting. The competing software uses real SCSI device emulation too, maybe this explains why it works fast.


I have also tried with SCSI device, same behaviour...

You think that trying IDE could change something?

The problem is that it loads slow, not as blacklisted and stopped at all

Terramex
04.11.2015, 14:13
I did not mean to suggest a reinstallation of Windows 10, only wanted to point out that there are no filter drivers ;)
Sorry for my mistakable statement.

Regarding the Windows defender finding:
as already suggested in my PM it's the PUP Somoto - a legal partner to monetize the DT freeware versions (LINK (http://forum.daemon-tools.cc/f14/sape-somoto-20-when-installing-dt-lite-36516/)).

Really strange behaviour with the slow loading after the disc check.
Alcohol's emulation engine is also based on SPTD :confused:

Though it doesn't look promising you could try a clean Windows boot: https://support.microsoft.com/it-it/kb/929135

And how is the behaviour with an image created with the Karaoke CD profile (tick Ignore bad blocks) ?

powerdrome
05.11.2015, 10:25
[QUOTE]I did not mean to suggest a reinstallation of Windows 10, only wanted to point out that there are no filter drivers ;)
Sorry for my mistakable statement.

No problem, i have saved image of my clean install so i can easily do testing


Regarding the Windows defender finding:
as already suggested in my PM it's the PUP Somoto - a legal partner to monetize the DT freeware versions (LINK (http://forum.daemon-tools.cc/f14/sape-somoto-20-when-installing-dt-lite-36516/)).

OK got it thanks


Really strange behaviour with the slow loading after the disc check.
Alcohol's emulation engine is also based on SPTD :confused:

Though it doesn't look promising you could try a clean Windows boot: https://support.microsoft.com/it-it/kb/929135

And how is the behaviour with an image created with the Karaoke CD profile (tick Ignore bad blocks) ?

May I aks you what is your behaviour with the image of my Dictionary?

Did u tried it?

What kind of virtual drive you mount (DT, SCSI or IDE?), how does it load? Fast/slow compared to the video I have posted?

Watching to the video, Is that normal behaviour or yours loads faster?

So we can narrow the problem to my system or to the particular protection of this software and how the new DT manages it.

OLD DT+win8.1 had no problems
NEW DT+win10 = problems

I think this dictionary has double protection (OLD securom+disk check)



Thanks

Terramex
05.11.2015, 17:30
Tested your Alcohol image and saw in Task manager that the Zan.exe is waiting for Explorer.exe.
If you close the still opened Explorer window of the virtual drive the program launches immideately.
Or for example if you use a short cut to the Zan.exe without an Explorer window open.

EDIT:
Image Catalog integration in Explorer seems to be the culprit.
If you disable it in Preferences everything's fine/fast.

powerdrome
06.11.2015, 16:37
Great finding Terramex!!!
I will give it a try in the week end... and get back

Thank you!!!

powerdrome
09.11.2015, 00:49
Tested your Alcohol image and saw in Task manager that the Zan.exe is waiting for Explorer.exe.
If you close the still opened Explorer window of the virtual drive the program launches immideately.
Or for example if you use a short cut to the Zan.exe without an Explorer window open.

EDIT:
Image Catalog integration in Explorer seems to be the culprit.
If you disable it in Preferences everything's fine/fast.

Ok Terramex, I can CONFIRM you found the culprit.

It is all in the explorer integration:

1.While integration is on, I run my image exe, it locks, as soon as I close explorer and DT window, the dictionary starts.

2.Integration OFF, dictionary starts immediatly as always.

Great Find and thanks for supporting me!!!

I also saved the logs from BusHound as suggested by the support-team, I attach them here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/tzi4cse80aqhd48/BusHound%20Logs.zip?dl=0
should those help?


Do you think the problem will be fixed or is just something strange on our systems?

Thanks a lot

Development
10.11.2015, 00:09
Please send again the link to your full image file to our support. We'll try to install and test it.