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gimpnuts
17.10.2005, 06:03
This is the first time I have registered, but I've been coming here since v2.11.

The sole reason that I registered is because I have to say that I find the public "outcry" against the delay of Daemon Tools V4 offensive. I work as a programmer, and have had to put up with the non-programmer attitude of "is it done yet?" for years. The sheer gall of some people is attrocious, considering that many of the users of Daemon Tools have yet to donate a single solitary dime for it's use, and judging by the number of comments, it's a fairly large community, with very little return for the time, dedication and raw talent of the Daemon Tools team. Reading the news section on the front page of the this site is degrading and disappointing. Since when do programmers who make very little if any return on their time have to defend themselves against impatient and ungrateful users of whom very little have contributed to the product, if at all? Insulting in the least.

People must understand that software doesn't just appear overnight, and those pieces of software that do are usually QND code and don't necessarily work right, if at all. It takes a tremendous amount of time to design, write, and debug code, and on a system level utility such as Daemon Tools, this can lead to endless crashing and rebooting and memory dump searching to find a particular bug - a very time consuming process. And to top it off, that particular bug may be something as arcane as a decimal point being off, or a misspelled variable name, or a misplaced object in place of another object by mistake. It happens, and often. I easily spend three to five times as much time debugging and testing the code than I did writing it in the first place.

I would like to see V4 come out as soon as possible too, but I don't want it to be riddled with bugs just for the sake of pushing the product out the door. The "possible" portion of ASAP means just that, a working, viable product that can be used relatively worry free, until then, a release is just not "possible". The amount and quality of work of the Daemon Tools team rivals that of products that publishing houses charge an arm and a leg for, for little or no money whatsoever. This hails as the Daemon Tools team's dedication to their craft, and looking a gift horse in the mouth doesn't help to alleviate their stress of code that may not be up to release quality yet. The team isn't just protecting themselves here, they are protecting you, the user, from unnecessary reboots and system failures.

Am I excited about V4? You bet! Am I willing to risk losing one of the greatest utilities to come along without a huge price tag simply because I have little or no patience? No way.

Non-programmers have lack of vision, and vision is what makes a programmer a programmer. The vision to see a need for a product, the vision to design it and code it and see it through to completion. This reminds me of most of the Microsoft bashers, the ones who complain about the security and the quality of the code, but couldn't tell you difference between Quantas, Semaphores, SHAs, etc. and a hole in the ground. Simply put, unless you can and do prove otherwise with a better product in a shorter time frame (not just think about it, but do it) you probably shouldn't complain about those who are talented enough to do it in the first place. I wouldn't dare critique a brain surgeon's performance if I thought the surgery ran a little long, as I have no basis in that field, and the same applies here. Non-programmers should check their coats at the door.

That being said, thank you to the Daemon Tools team for creating one of my all time favorite utilities, one that I have suggested to others hundreds, maybe even thousands of times over. Hats off to you guys, you guys are the greatest. I look forward to the launch of V4, but if it's not ready, don't let the narrow mindedness of the complaining users push you to release a product that is not quite ready. Quality over quantity. And for that, I for one can wait.

acetken
17.10.2005, 09:25
I actually came here and made an account specifically to say thank you to the Daemon Tools team for all their hard work. (For free no less!)

C'mon people, show 'em some love!

NetSoerfer
17.10.2005, 11:24
This post should be mandatory for everyone who wants to criticize programmers. I'm not talking about the Daemon Tools specific part (which is actually so great that I'm thinking about the permission to quote it whenever somebody asks for the release date) but rather about the part that outlines why software development is such a time consuming process. I loved the Microsoft part actually!

Everyone rants against Microsoft - I assume everyone does it because everyone else does it -, but they developed the only operating system that was good enough (and I don't mean stability only, but usability and beginner-friendliness as well) to be used by everyone. Ask a computer illiterate to use Linux, or even OpenBSD - they'll look the same as most of us would look if they were confronted with the task to compare DNA samples.

That's not to say I like Microsoft's way of competing in the market, but they do have made some good software.


Sorry, that just had to be said. Anyway, reeally great post. Someone who understands... :)

evan_davis5225
17.10.2005, 15:25
I agree with the OP. The DT team and the BETA team work long and hard to fix all the little bugs that can ruin a consumer's day. Some errors could even lead to system damage, although I have my doubts that errors like that are in DT. The comparison with Microsoft is especially appropriate, since everyone who uses Windows has to pay for it (ignoring piracy, of course). By paying $200 for Windows, the consumer purchases the right to complain to Microsoft. The majority of the community is not contributing a cent to the development of DT, or the upkeep of the website, so they do not have the right to complain. I would contribute, but I am a minor without a credit card. Until I have such, I can only sit by and encourage the DT and BETA teams. I request that this thread recieve "Sticky" status, because it is one of the best posts I have seen in this forum!

Raa
17.10.2005, 16:07
I totally agree with what's been said

But on the other hand I'm the customer (whether i'm paying or not isn't relevant at this stage)

I'm expecting the software, so I expect a timeframe - and I wasn't provided with one.

Dont get me wrong, im NOT ranting, angry, upset or anything. Just stating what I feel, as a "customer's point of view"

I got a bit worried about the lack of news (now corrected). If you're making software, constructing buildings, creating whatever! There -IS- a timeframe involved. I think the problem exists here was that there was no given timeframe, it was a "when its done" case (until recently)

Lets take the building industry, bad example but you'll see my point.
If someone started work on a major skyscraper and said "it'll be ready when its done" could you imagine the public outcry?

That's all that's happening here I feel. People just want to know what's going on! Nothing more, nothing less.

It's not unreasonable, is it?

I feel it isn't, but then again, i'm sure everyone has their own point of view.

I've said it before and i'll -STRESS- it again, the DT tools team (YOU!!!) have done and are still doing, and EXCELLENT job. Keep up the fantastic work.

All in all, we learn from our mistakes, and we have to accept ^some^ criticism - experience is, what makes us human, after all.....

Have a good day/night peeps!!
I'll be back soon to anno... I mean check progress ;)

Raa.

Nemetacyst26
22.10.2005, 01:16
Just think
If they refuse to tell all 50 or so threads who ask the same question
"whats going on"
then its got to be good
either that or they have no idea
which would be very bad....
and then we dont really want to know

and another point i feel the need to mention is this

If they told us everything that was going to be on it, and they couldnt get some to work properly and had to scratch it from the program, we'd get all pissed off cuz we would think they lied to us, even though they did the best job they could

and besides, if they told us, we'd have nothing to talk about would we, or complain about, or nag about....
this way is so much more fun isnt it?

Nikos
22.10.2005, 01:48
But on the other hand I'm the customer (whether i'm paying or not isn't relevant at this stage)

I'm expecting the software, so I expect a timeframe - and I wasn't provided with one.Problem is, how can you give a timeframe* if you don't know when it's gonna be finished?

* BTW, a timeframe has been given. DTools4 will appear before the end of this month, and "end of this month" is 9 days from now. However, that's just a plan; there's no guarantee that no announcement will be made that goes like "we're sorry, but the release date is now next month" or whatever.

Raa
22.10.2005, 15:31
I know that now dude, im talking about before.

I'm sorry, but the "how can i give a timeframe" excuse doesn't wash with me really.

If you're going to build a building, then you have estimates for how long that building takes based on (whatever).

Same for programming - I *know* its not the same, and I *know* that you can't plan for bugs that crop up yadda.

Anyway.... enough of this. We're almost there, lets stay cool :)

Kitna
22.10.2005, 22:40
I know that now dude, im talking about before.

I'm sorry, but the "how can i give a timeframe" excuse doesn't wash with me really.

If you're going to build a building, then you have estimates for how long that building takes based on (whatever).

Same for programming - I *know* its not the same, and I *know* that you can't plan for bugs that crop up yadda.

Anyway.... enough of this. We're almost there, lets stay cool :)
Maybe we have the timeframe in the customers forum and have been keeping it secret :P

waldo
23.10.2005, 02:41
Just wanted to chime in. I just registered mostly to say that I think Daemon Tools is fantastic...and the ol' adage always rings true "beggars can't be choosers". It is amazing how people give these guys so much crap, when they don't give 'em any money, support nothin.

I am not a programmer, but a web developer, and when someone is getting stuff for free...well it gets done when it gets done, nuff said...and I expect a thank you when it is finished!

Thank you! I love the software and look forward to it whenever it is ready!

xeroxide
24.10.2005, 11:59
Maybe we have the timeframe in the customers forum and have been keeping it secret :P

he he, is that what is meant by prioritisation?
anyways... i have to agree with gimpnuts on this one.

@gimpnuts
" The vision to see a need for a product, the vision to design it and code it and see it through to completion"

.... hmmm... are you an artist of some sort? :-P

and i've gotta say, projects rarely come through to completion. Always ways to expand, optimize add simplified/power user controls etc....

@Raa
"If you're going to build a building, then you have estimates for how long that building takes based on (whatever)."

Yes but i believe the avoidance of a deadline is valid as well - especially in early stages. More people will be upset if the deadline is not met, and then an outpouring of "but you promised,etc... will happen and that is what they are trying to avoid. The only thing that would be nice is more information posted about development and progress on dt4 but if that means delays in the actual program being released due to time spent typing up updates and info... is it worth it or should we just hang tight and hold on?

NetSoerfer
24.10.2005, 12:56
What kind of updates do you expect? Daemon Tools v4 will basically have the same features as Daemon Tools v3. It will, in addition to that, have a switch for Auto Insert Notification. So what else is to tell? It'll be heavily(!!) encrypted, it's being re-coded from scratch...

I'm sure you don't want to hear that we fixed a typo in line 769, right? ;) So just be patient a little longer, the wait will be over soon.

lance1962
25.10.2005, 02:12
Hell I cant wait either - Im runing XP64 so I have no way to mount images currently (tried some others - no success)

Cant help thinking that if i didn't know DT4 was on its way - id be none the wiser, maybe that is the only error of judment I can see - why tell people its on the way - if the endless questions about when is it going to be ready annoy and slow you down.

Great work though DT4 guys - Great program.

Lance

gimpnuts
25.10.2005, 05:41
Well, I would say thank you for the words of encouragement towards my post, but I really can't, as this has been in the minds of programmers for years, just most never spell it out verbatim.

Personally, I think the release of DT4 is an achievement unto itself. Realize it or not, there is a race going on between the larger, profitable software companies, namely Alcohol Software, and Daemon Tools. Guess who's gonna win? This will be a four star achievement on the day of release, when a small software outfit outwits the larger one. This will be an accomplishment that could really put DT in the mainstream, and earn it the widespread attention that it deserves.

There is another way to look at this too. With Windows Vista right around the corner, and with a similar model of internal operation (x64 wise that is), look who may just come out of the gates running... Daemon Tools! It's been done before, the little guys who became giants, for example Stardock (WindowBlinds), Ahead (Nero), MainConcept (MainActor) - all great utilities that started out small and often overlooked, but triumphed in the end. This is where DT should be heading in my opinion.

Well, I'm glad my post helped people to understand, but there is still one problem, the number of "Thank You"s to the DT team on this thread should be equal to or greater than the amount of times this thread has actually been read. So if you are reading this thread, take the time to reply and send a big "Thank You!" to the DT team for the great work they have already done, and the even better work they are about to do...

Here's mine...
THANK YOU DT TEAM, YOUR VISION AND HARD WORK HAS PROVIDED ME WITH COUNTLESS HOURS OF ENJOYMENT AND SATISFACTION. I APPRECIATE ALL THAT YOU DO, AND I WILL CONTINUE TO PRAISE YOUR PRODUCT FOR YEARS TO COME! THANKS SO MUCH!

Nikos
25.10.2005, 06:29
THANK YOU DT TEAM, YOUR VISION AND HARD WORK HAS PROVIDED ME WITH COUNTLESS HOURS OF ENJOYMENT AND SATISFACTION. I APPRECIATE ALL THAT YOU DO, AND I WILL CONTINUE TO PRAISE YOUR PRODUCT FOR YEARS TO COME! THANKS SO MUCH!That one looks quite funny when you strip off the part that precedes it... :rolleyes:

(And no, you won't get the Pro version for free. Hi hi!)

xeroxide
25.10.2005, 12:43
I'm sure you don't want to hear that we fixed a typo in line 769, right? ;) So just be patient a little longer, the wait will be over soon.

hehe, ok ok. point taken :-P

AmphetaMarinE
30.10.2005, 09:44
There is another way to look at this too. With Windows Vista right around the corner, and with a similar model of internal operation (x64 wise that is), look who may just come out of the gates running... Daemon Tools!

Well....
IMHO, Daemon soft has been running for a long time...
Here's hoping when vista ships, D-Tools is doing more of a sprint through Bill's Gates :P

Dev team... i bow down to you... If only I could write code like yours.....