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**LocutusofBorg** · 17.12.2006, 09:43

before I reply:

Which software have you downloaded that told you to install
DaemonTools? Are you sure you used latest version and not
outdated? Which DT-version and which SPTD-driver?

Some System-Specs would be nice, too!

now to your rant against us and your nice comparison between
DT and a virus (there are lots available in inet, I suggest you to
make a selftest and download one, then come back later and
tell us which "product" was easier for you to get rid off and
how much more damage DT did to your data compared to
a virus.
-------------------------------------
About your probs:

this is normally no big deal, as we help people here then to
bring the system back to the state as it was before DT was
installed. However, in that case EVERY driver-software needs
to include this warning. Given the fact, that you're "in Linux"
since 98 I assume (but could be wrong of course) that you're
a "poweruser" or at least experienced. Although you seemed to
have bad experiences with our software, especially people
like you should know that drivers are a DEEP modification, not
comparable to "normal" applications.

And frankly spoken: compared to the users that post here
about problems and that one's that rant and spew and run
amok to tell us how shitty our application is - it is only few
that have a problem. But as DT is so widely used, it is "normal"
that it SEEMS as if many people run into trouble, when in fact
it is a small number only.

Please also keep in mind, that you have alot of different hard-
ware in every system and - other as "normal" software
(example: does one game take notice of another one? Do
they have to "play together"? No! -> unlike drivers!) we have
to be carefully determine every possible configuration which
can be "unstable".

We are far away from being perfect, however, our experience
showed us (yes, we DO talk to other developers in same
"area" and also "observe" similar other apps) that others
have exact the same probs, too.

Jfyi: We have had HUNDREDS of workarounds for bugs WE
are not responsible for! regardless if it is some AntiVirus, who,
against all rules!!! try to access to processes directly and not
use "usual terms" and therefore made system unstable (yes,
this happend with one specific scanner - others used "official"
methods and no, it was not even an extremely good scanner)
or other drivers, that are - sorry for my harsh words here -
poorly developed (like f.e. some hdd-drivers for external
NAS-storage-devices) and and and, the list is endless. Hell,
we found even software on a wellknown manufacturer-system
preinstalled that manipulate DIRECTLY every driver, so this
MUST lead to probs, especially if one create a driver that
protects itself against such bad behaviour.

To make a long story short:

When user run into trouble, HERE is the best adress to iron
it out and we guarantee to help you to AT LEAST remove
DT. Only because you had "a nearly heartattack" give you not
the right to post in such a manner as if we would not know
what we do. And most users KNOW that DT is not just soft-
ware, it is a driver, goddamn. Of course it is ALWAYS risky
to install drivers. I often saw systems that got inaccessable
or BSOD's because of installed drivers.
I'm only a little bit dissapointed because YOU should know that.
At least when you are who I think you are. I could be
wrong of course. Then I apologize for my assumptions and
hope the above explanation shed some light to WHY it is
MAYBE possible that your system becomes unbootable.
However: we can bring you back to your system in NO time.
If you only let us. And yes. We will include such disclaimer
maybe really soon, so that people like you are warned in case
they didnt even know already before. Next time, boot into
safemode and press "cancel" when system asks if it should
stop to load sptd.sys - then remove sptd from system and
boot into normal windows again. 99% of problems then solved.

And now do me a favor and post at all boards worldwide to
be carefull when installing drivers from other manufacturers
as well (HP-printerdriver e.g. wrecked my system, too!),
same for alot of other drivers, including ATI's graphic-
drivers or audiodrivers for soundcards, or usb-cards. Or
NAS-storage-drivers. And and and.

15 million downloads and believe me: we receive alot of feed-
back from big companys who use DT - there are probs, too.
But compared to the systems that run flawlessly....

We do our best to iron out bug after bug where WE are responsible
and even that one's where other companys are responsible.
We invested tons of time to make DT as compatible as possible.
Read through the forum here and you will see that I do not
lie to you. In case of hardware-incompatibility, we bought
TONS of hardware, especially exotic one's to make sure that
DT runs on such systems also. We are really (mostly) nice
and helpfull here, however, it is hard to be nice and help-
full sometimes. Read through the forum - you will find prove
that we often do really our best, you even do not have to pay
us - it only seems, this is not enough for you

sorry for your bad experiences with DaemonTools. I apologize
for your experiences and hopefully, you will find out that we
ARE nice and helpfull and do not try to "wreck" your system.
Believe it or not: That was NOT our intention when we created
DT.

just my 2cent.

**Elandril** · 17.12.2006, 13:19

Whoa, calm down, David Klassen!

Since you seem to be working with both Windows and Linux for a long time, you should know that installing an application which adds driver components to a running system can always cause some problems. No matter how much a software ist tested and has matured, the sheer volume of available configurations as well as hardware and software products makes it impossible to evaluate every single combination. Naturally there can be some combinations that produce unwanted results. The cause of such complications can often not be sticked just to one of the products involved, because it usually involves many components which all behave in a specific matter to cause said problem.

I have to fully agree with Locutus on this. The DT team is always doing their best to adress all issues as soon as possible, so there is no need to post in offensive language or compare DT with a virus. Someone who - as you claim - works in the software industry should be particularily aware of what a virus is and how much damage those can cause. I would expect better of you!

That said, you should try to post some more information about the circumstances that lead to your problem. What software did you use that told you to install DT? What are your system specs? What was the exact error you got? Did you try to boot into "Save Mode" and uninstall/disable DT/SPTD there?

PS concerning your "only one computer" problem:
As a Linux pro you should have no problem booting a live system (e.g. Knoppix or Ubuntu Live) to get internet access and browse the DT website. And booting into "Save Mode with networking" also lets you at least rudimentarily surf the web.

**chrashoverraid** · 17.12.2006, 13:49

hey LocutusofBorg i wanna see i really appreciate DT!! this time alot of people are complaining about dt and dtPro but i want to tell you that you are doing a very good job (ofcourse not only you but also the admins, beta testers, and developers). I thank you for the good program! I never had (serious) problems with DT although i installed it on alot of computers!
i hae a question: do people wich are complaining make you angry?? it makes me really angry and this guy didn't use the search because there are so much threads were you can find a solution how you can boot into windows again!!

ß · 17.12.2006, 17:51

Originally Posted by David Klassen View Post

I just finished installing this after downloading something off the Internet which told me to install this program.

yeah ? what ? a warezed game ??? they normally "tell" people to "mount using dt or alcohol and install, then use file from crack directory......." if not what else ? and if it told you to install software x you would ? (substitute x for a virus or whatever...)

Originally Posted by David Klassen View Post

I have been a Windows user since 1996 (Linux since 1998). I work in the software industry...

hmphhhh... yeah.. you really are showing your long term experience. you listed your "credentials" to show us that you know what's what. well then, shouldn't you know better ? shouldn't you have already been well aware of what dt was ?? (and in fact using it already) i don't use many programs out there, but i at least know what they are or used for. and if i'm about to install a program i know nothing about i do some research 1st. and with your "experience" you should know to use a test system or even a multiboot setup (as you have one machine) when installing any major new software that embeds itself into the host o/s. and you should know about dt anyway... it's popular enough. like i said i don't use many popular programs out there either but if i start seeing much writing and internet activity about a specific program i never heard of before i investigate it just out of sheer curiosity and to stay in the loop. again, with your claimed "industry credentials", voluntarily listed by yourself, you either lie or are stupid.

**Xtreme2damax** · 18.12.2006, 23:42

Just Installed on Windows XP Home Edition (Latest) How about a big warning message that says: -----------------------------------------------------------
/ \ "If you are not a Windows Kernel Level Software
/ \ Developer the choice to install this program may
/ ! \ destroy your computer!"
/________\
-----------------------------------------------------------

I believe it does. A big warning message pops up before install, It says "SPTD is Incompatable with Kernel Debuggers, if you are using one such as winice (Or whatever it was), either DO NOT Install Daemon Tools, or Uninstall the Kernel Debugger first, or something along those lines.

I just finished installing this after downloading something off the Internet which told me to install this program. After I installed it, I could not restart the computer.

Hmm, maybe what you downloaded or installed contained a Virus, Worm or Trojan, Another reason why people shouldn't download and install warez, that is if you even pirated anything

After many hours of near heart attack emotions the computer is back to a state we could call normal. I have been a Windows user since 1996 (Linux since 1998). I work in the software industry and believe me, from my perspective

Your Perspective? As stated above you should already know about incompatibilities certain software has with certain hardware, the Development team can't test every combination possible as the don't have the resources to do so.

you need this warning on your package.

And it is, right before you install Daemon Tools or SPTD

This one gave me a good laugh:

In my opinion your whole program is as bad or worse than a computer virus.

ROFL!!, I've been using this program for over a year now to play my legally backed up games, and have yet to have any problems with it.

A Computer Virus? thats taking it a bit overboard, daemon tools is in no way is a virus or similar to a virus.

You can't blame D-tools for the searchbar as it is optional to install, meaning you don't have to install it if you don't want to (Just uncheck the Checkbox By the Word "Searchbar" before install, and then your fine. Not only that, they have an entire section devoted to it.

Anyone should have common sense to know that any search bar contains adware, but the searchbar is optional in daemon tools. Not much software gives you the option to not install the adware.

Daemon Tools of anyone has been the most honest and upfront about the optional adware, and not forcing you to install it

**FrostFire626** · 03.01.2007, 01:31

Do something about it.

This sounds like a big kiss-ass party to me. DT causes catostrophic problems on thousands of computers, you can't deny that. Just in case my new thread doesn't make the cut for whatever reasons, thread summary: inform downloaders of the risk of installing DT BEFORE they need help unscrewing their computers. A minority of internet users thoroughly research the programs that they are downloading/installing, and DT is one that sorely needs to be looked over before use. Time and time again I see forum posts of people who are frustrated to the point of exhaustion over the negative effects of DT, and not once has a DT member implemented a way of warning the vast majority of users who are not as technicall savvy as others about the dangers of using DT or any driver. Stop lashing out against posters who are reporting severe disruptions of their expensive computers and do something about it.

**LocutusofBorg** · 03.01.2007, 14:07

sure. As soon as you convince e.g. nVidia, ATI, Microsoft itself
or other driver-vendors to include such message, we will in-
clude it too.

We both park not in the same garage it seems. Here is a huge
help-forum and enough warnings that DT, as ANY driver, can
cause system to hang. However: this is EASILY REVERTABLE

People who does NOT inform about the software which they
install, we can NOT help. Just as a reminder: those people who
have probs are a MINORITY! The messages posted here only
show that ones that have trouble, not the ones where DT runs
flawlessly. Keep that to your facts, DT is installed a millions of
times to users PC's and only few run into probs. And those ones
can easily remove DT. However, we will maybe again add a
"how can I remove DT in case of trouble" text to our installer.

The whole thread here and the "lashing against posters" who
post in such a matter as the thread-starter is not astonishing!

Your posting, while disrespectful, at least contains mainly
your opinion - and as you can see, it is STILL here. We dont
fear "Mr. FrostFire's 626"'s opinion. But for sure we do not
accept shit like:

In my opinion your whole program is as bad or worse than a computer virus

And that was what this thread was about - and the rant
against such posters. Your post was solala. Sensefull
info combined with disrespect and assumptions. However,
now, as stated above, we maybe include this text to our
installer. And you can bet it will not ONE SINGLE person
detain to install DT. But it will hopefully make you happy.
Hopefully.

**Reef** · 03.01.2007, 14:56

Originally Posted by FrostFire626 View Post

DT causes catostrophic problems on thousands of computers

You forgot to mention the millions of users who don't have any problems with it. Those 'catastrophic problems' are usually caused by badly configured systems (or PEBKAC

)

**Copytrooper** · 03.01.2007, 15:55

Actually very few problems are actually caused by Daemon Tools, in most cases just some bug in other software is triggered somehow. And we can and will not fix the bugs of other ppl.
After all we always said if you don't know what you're doing don't use Daemon Tools.

**al1uk** · 03.01.2007, 17:32

inform downloaders of the risk of installing DT BEFORE they need help unscrewing their computers.

There is a risk when installing anything. If don't wanna take the risk, dont install DT. Better even, don't install any program

**FrostFire626** · 03.01.2007, 22:52

After all we always said if you don't know what you're doing don't use Daemon Tools.

There is a risk when installing anything. If don't wanna take the risk, dont install DT. Better even, don't install any program

My point is that a warning something along the lines of these statements would be great, without requiring the search of large forums = clearly display it next to DT download links. It would prevent a lot of people's problems before they occur, especially those who mistake DT as a standard application and not a driver.

**Jito463** · 04.01.2007, 02:55

I can guarantee you that even if a warning was placed on the download page that there would STILL be people who would complain and would never read it. How do I know? People never read the "Read this first" stickied posts in forums. People never read the instructions. And most importantly, people still don't read the message on the download page about the adware in the DTools download and come here to complain about it. The idea isn't a bad one, just pointless, because people don't bother to read.

**Matt G** · 10.03.2007, 18:57

i just wish it didn't confect with softice...

**Jito463** · 14.03.2007, 14:07

It shouldn't, it just won't work when a debugger is active (for hopefully obvious reasons).

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